Curse

Tuna · Jun 03, 2005, 07:58 AM // 07:58

I think on the subject of PvE grind for PvP there is a large amount of misunderstanding between the groups. Several misconceptions that I have noticed are as follows:

1. Many people claim there to be no grind, yet have one character with one build and no will to unlock items. Of course, their stance is very true from their perspective, but ultimatley wrong.

2. MMO's have grind and Guild Wars is an MMO. If you haven't noticed that GW is NOT an MMO, you need to return to DAOC and the like. There are several FAQs that explain the difference, so I will refrain.

3. PvPers hate PvE. I don't think I've met a single person who has not enjoyed playing through the PvE missions. The missions aren't the problem.

4. PvPers want it all now and hate unlocking skills. Now there are varying levels of this, but generally I would say this is incorrect, or at least partially so. As many have stated, unlocking all/regular only skills etc. upon beating the game is acceptable for many. Having to unlock skills can be pretty nasty for some elites (at least before patch, don't know how it is now), but the act of getting them again is not the major problem. The problem lies in aquiring the skill points to purchace them. I believe there are 450 skills in the game, 75 per class, 15 of which are elites. I estimate one recives 1/3 of those through the quests, leaving 50 to be unlocked. This means a typical PvE character can unlock all the skills for its primary class, but they will only have the quested skills for secondary. To get more points one must run an uphill treadmill or simply create another character and hope you can get all the skills with the 4 available slots. Unlikely to say the least. Nobody can say that buying skills from merchants is to hard, so do away with skill points.

5. Unlocking skills is the only grind. If one is to say this, they discredit themselves immediatley, as it is obvious they have not tried to get a single rune. I myself have all but 8 superiors unlocked, but only after ungodly amounts of grinding. As a testament to most PvP players distane for the current rune unlocking method I shall provide brief story. After the patch I have begun to salvage major runes out of purple armor with out identifying them. This allows for people to purchace runes for the classes they need and get both a rune and unlock it. After spamming lions arch for quite some time, I got a message from a prominant PvPer asking to buy my runes. After the sale they refered me to his guild and I promptly had 5 people asking to buy any unid rune I had for sale. Now demand for runes isn't a bad thing, but the hight of this demand proves that it is indeed a necessity to be competitive.

6. PvP premades are competitive. Sure, you can take one for a roll in the arena and get some kills, but you won't get any farther than that. The first 1-2 rounds of tombs can probably be taken with all premades too, but don't hope to be successfull.

7. People who whine about the grind are nubs, suck it up like we did in X MMO. The reality of it that people from almost every genre play this game; FPSers, RPGers, RTSers, and even racing sim people. People with MMO backround are not the majority in this game. One must only look at the number of complaints about grind to see that this is true.

Now for the solutions and the not solutions:

NOT solution: split PvP and PvE in anyway. This is inane as the characters are identical anyway. For those complaining that your PvE character is not able to stand up against 'twinked' PvP characters, you can always make the EXACT same character as a PvP only. No RP loss garunteed.

NOT solution: Enable UAS. Though I would love it, I understand what this does to PvEers. On a side philosphical note; think about the stupidity of liking to unlock items simply because you cannot get them easily and what really changes if you can unlock them anyway. IMO its all in the players head, you don't have to turn on the button if you don't want, but nobody is perfect.

Solution: Unlock certain amounts of skills/runes/etc. upon completion of the game.

Solution: Do away with skill points or at least make it reasonable to get all the skills, preferably on as few characters as possible. Why let us change professions if you can't utilize it?

Solution: I'm stealing the from somebody, the credit goes to you, whoever you are. Guild hall PvE waves, defend the fort type of mission with unlocks for completing each wave. Basically anything to get these 450 skills moving and quicker than they are now.

My standpoint and wishes:

Always get the rune when salvagin armor. You get the upgrade from weapons, why not armor too? Nobody will salvage unid gold armor in fears of losing the rune. This is counterproductive the the recent changes with unid runes.

UAS in the BWE provided variety and flexibility never before seen in a game. I don't think that it was so much that people had no idea what they were doing, but that they were experimenting with builds and were able to solve problems quickly by changing skills etc. It was the most fun I've had in a long while and I can't wait untill everyone has the skills unlocked to mimick that event. The massiveness of the options and the power to change your character as you like is what makes Guild Wars the astounding game that it is. The grime and muck that is grind must be wiped from the shining entity that lies beneath that is Guild Wars in all its glory.

-Tuna, Member of DrkH

Celes Tial · Jun 03, 2005, 08:19 AM // 08:19

Oh god, no. Not another one. More running in circles with people not reading other people's posts and arguments.

Your arguments seem reasonable, and you understand that UAS is NOT a solution because of what it would do to the many PvP+PvE'ers... yet you list it again anyway as a wish below solutions. I liked your other suggestions, but why bring UAS up again?

Jun 03, 2005, 08:26 AM // 08:26

We need to make this a sticky, or atleast link to it from the front page.

Quintus · Jun 03, 2005, 08:33 AM // 08:33

You took all of the PvP arguements, you put them in a legible, logical format, and you did it without any flaming or bashing. Good Job!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Blackace

We need to make this a sticky, or atleast link to it from the front page.

I second this motion.

sama · Jun 03, 2005, 09:06 AM // 09:06

lol...i wanna give u a sigil, tuna =)

Bamelin · Jun 03, 2005, 10:11 AM // 10:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Celes Tial

I liked your other suggestions, but why bring UAS up again?

Because UAS made the game fun for people that enjoy PvP?

That said the origional post is awsome.

Barkam · Jun 03, 2005, 10:18 AM // 10:18

I shall also sign this petition.

Saerden · Jun 03, 2005, 10:43 AM // 10:43

PvE =! unlocking something unrelated to PvE
Explanation:
If you unlock a rune for PvP use, you DO NOT get a PvE reward at all. You could buy this rune with Gold.

PvE = Playing the story part of the game, exploring the map, whatever.

PvE + PvP = Enjoying PvE, enjoying PvP. No need for a connection at all.
Possible connections: Those that dont affect the outcome of PvP, like visuals, cool Guild Hall additions, new armors or weapons with same stats, new haircuts, etc.

In my opinion, those who insist that there need to be advantages in PvP that can only be aquired through PvE (the actual game, or artificial rune unlocking grind) need to be given an unique label.

PvE + PvP players like me dont mind UAS at all. Actually it would allow me to enjoy the REAL (IMHO) pvp part (trying out different builds, not making the ONE build and perfect the execution)

Those that claim that PVE will get destroyed by UAS were not the target audience of GW. Needs to be added too imho. You can call it a fallacy, i wont mind.

Nerf "Oh noes, another grind post" posts
Seems to be the new "IN" attitude now

*edit: your post, as well as the intentions behind it, are very good. It its, however, not (yet) the "Complete History of the Grind Wars" - if you take constructive criticism (another "IN" thing atm) into consideration, it will DESERVE to be "sticky"

DrSLUGFly · Jun 03, 2005, 11:03 AM // 11:03

I don't have anything further to add on the topic except that I'm glad to see that people are offering solutions instead of problems instead of solutions. Nice post tuna... I too would give you a sigil (if I had 2... I don't have 1...

)

Numa Pompilius · Jun 03, 2005, 11:41 AM // 11:41

Saerden: well said. Those were my main problems with the original post too.

Sausaletus Rex · Jun 03, 2005, 05:05 PM // 17:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

PvPers hate PvE. I don't think I've met a single person who has not enjoyed playing through the PvE missions. The missions aren't the problem.

No, it's having to go throught he missions countless times hunting for that boss with the elite skill you want or because you've started up a new character...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

PvP premades are competitive. Sure, you can take one for a roll in the arena and get some kills, but you won't get any farther than that. The first 1-2 rounds of tombs can probably be taken with all premades too, but don't hope to be successfull.

I've said it before and I'll say it again (And this should probably have been the unofficial motto of the alpha test) but just because something works doesn't mean it's any good. There are too many variables, circumstances, and situations to take into account for a single instance of success to mean much of anything. It's whether or not that success can be repeated in the same circumstances over and over again or if that same technique can be used in other circumstances to as good an effect that really matters. In other words, once is a fluke, twice is a coincidence, three times is interesting, four times is an indication, five times is a direction, and more than that is a pattern, so talk to me when you can do it a few times. Having one of your opponents computer's melt down so they disconnect or getting them to take off all their armor "works" because chances are you'll win but it's not really something I'd like to rely on...

Corwin_Andros · Jun 03, 2005, 05:34 PM // 17:34

One thing that might also help alleviate a few things is if they gave the pre-mades at least a little more flexibility.

Like give them a reasonable set of basic and few elites to pick a skill set from.. along with the ability to make use of unlocked items on the account..

I don't mean the entire customizable list available to a "custom" PvP character, but something a bit less static than the options currently available with the templates.

Stur · Jun 03, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Wow never thought I would agree with some of the people promoting this post but, yes Tuna well thought out and great solutions offered. Not bad for a PvPer

AirOnG · Jun 03, 2005, 05:45 PM // 17:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by tuna

4. PvPers want it all now and hate unlocking skills.

You didn't really address this misconception regarding wanting everything handed to oneself on a "silver platter" or wanting an "ubercharacter."

The Virago · Jun 03, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

In before the lock to say this:

The only thing getting locked around here is people who make statements like yours. ~The Management

Vashna · Jun 03, 2005, 07:01 PM // 19:01

Quote:

"PvE + PvP players like me dont mind UAS at all. Actually it would allow me to enjoy the REAL (IMHO) pvp part (trying out different builds, not making the ONE build and perfect the execution)"

This is in essence the core reason why many PvP fans want UAS, or something close to it. There are so many different skills in the game, so many different combinations even just for 1 character. When you factor in an 8 person team build, the number of build combinations goes up astronomically. A typical PvP fan in GW wants the freedom to explore with skills, to play around with all these combinations of builds, to mix and match to her heart's content, to play mad scientist and try to come up with an unanticipated but effective build.

Until a full or close to full set of skills and runes are unlocked, the PvP experience is going to feel limited for these types of players. It'll feel like an artist being asked to paint without a full set of inks. The artist can of course improvise with off colors to produce the vision in her head, but she'll still be frustrated knowing that if she just had the right color ink, she could make something *really* special.

Tuna · Jun 03, 2005, 07:04 PM // 19:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

You didn't really address this misconception regarding wanting everything handed to oneself on a "silver platter" or wanting an "ubercharacter."

What I was attempting to explain is that I believe most PvPers would be happy with a reasonable way to unlock skill and upgrades. (read the solutions section) As I have already written, I and many PvPers would absolutely love to have it all immediatly but also realize thats going to be the best thing for the general community playing this game.

As for what you said Saerden, unfortunately at the moment PvE = unlocking for PvP for many players. As I proposed in 'solutions' unlocking the PvP content should be made either quick and painless or enjoyable for those who need it or not.

Those who continue to complain about 'another grind thread':
You'll notice that nowhere did I ask for retaliation from the opposition, just that you read my thoughts, formulate your own, and then post if you so desire. The abrutness and content of your posts indicate that you did not actually read before your post; something most consider a good idea. If you don't want to hear and consider the other side, don't bother reading it and certainly don't post.

Thank you all for your compliments.

Epinephrine · Jun 03, 2005, 07:29 PM // 19:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by AirOnG

You didn't really address this misconception regarding wanting everything handed to oneself on a "silver platter" or wanting an "ubercharacter."

I'll bite.

[rant]
I think that the only reasons not to unlock all skills for PvP is that people are a) scared that they'll lose, b) addicted to the idea that playing for longer makes them "better" innately, which is reinforced by getting gear etc. and c) that RPGers don't want a fair fight, they want to be all powerful.

Probably why they play RPGs, you need no skill to get "powerful" in an RPG, just time invested. This is great, as when you've been playing a nice long time you don't even need to have any skill, you can fall back on your gear.

Read the suggesions board and all you see are people whining about how powerful X is, and why Y needs a boost, or how we need skill Z so we can instantly kill our opponent.

It isn't being "handed something on a silver platter" to desire to be able to compete. Every game on the planet that has been played competitively over the ages has as a basis the fairness of initial conditions. Nets are the same size on either end of a soccer (football) field, hockey rink or basketball court; you don't get extra timeouts or headstarts for previous victories, or free points because your team has been around longer. Chess masters don't get a 2 move headstart, the previous year's spelling bee champion doesn't get a cheat sheat. In every area of real competition through the ages the point has been to test oneself against an opponent(s), and starting in even conditions - sometimes in a game there is a side advantage due to wind, setup etc, which is why they bother with switching ends in games, or why we bother with playing both axis and allies in a WW2 shooter to determine the winner - because it is based on fair play.

Anyone who feels that they deserve to go into PvP with an advantage other than their skill is an emotional child, who can't understand the nature of competition, the value of skill or the importance of fairness, and is probably playing RPGs as it is an area they can succeed in without skill, simply by copying the builds others have thought up and buying the good stuff on ebay.

[/rant]

Aug · Jun 03, 2005, 08:37 PM // 20:37

1) You don't need all the runes to compete. There is a grind in the game, certainly. However, you don't have to partake in it to be 'competitive'. The only level of play having runes really matters is at the very top, and obviously only a very small percentage of the population will be at the top. I hold that for the average gamer, the advantage that a Superior rune over a Major gives is pretty insignificant in 4v4 and 8v8 play.

2) What difference does it make whether you call GW an MMO or not? The point is that the game needs a grind. Otherwise there'd be little reason to play PvE. Most people need motivation to do something. In fact, this game probably needs more variety in grinding, as many people don't do the grind because they realize that unlocking all the runes isn't that important. And without PvE, the replayability of the game drops a lot, which means your playerbase decays/atrophies more quickly.

3) PvPers in general don't hate PvE. Some PvPers might. Most PvPers probably like PvP more than PvE, but I'm pretty certain the vast majority of "PvPers" do enjoy PvE sometimes. I know I do.

4) I think unlocking all basic skill once you complete the game would be reasonable.

5) PvP rewards is the only grind. That includes runes, skills, and item components. The game needs some grind for the PvE players. I bought the game for my fiance (she's mostly a PvE player, but does enjoy some PvP), and she has almost 0 desire to play the game, because there's no real benefit or motivation. Her only motivation is to acquire skills and runes, which are really only necessary for PvP. The game could probably use some PvE-only items that are really uber.

6) Agreed here. The PvP templates are good enough for random PvP, but won't stand up to team play.

7) What proof do you have to say that the majority of the playerbase is unhappy with the current state of the game? And how do you know that means they're not from MMOs? Forums will ALWAYS be comprised of more complaints than praise. You cannot cite the contents of an optional forum as evidence.

I do agree with your solutions.

Quote:

It isn't being "handed something on a silver platter" to desire to be able to compete. Every game on the planet that has been played competitively over the ages has as a basis the fairness of initial conditions. Nets are the same size on either end of a soccer (football) field, hockey rink or basketball court; you don't get extra timeouts or headstarts for previous victories, or free points because your team has been around longer. Chess masters don't get a 2 move headstart, the previous year's spelling bee champion doesn't get a cheat sheat. In every area of real competition through the ages the point has been to test oneself against an opponent(s), and starting in even conditions - sometimes in a game there is a side advantage due to wind, setup etc, which is why they bother with switching ends in games, or why we bother with playing both axis and allies in a WW2 shooter to determine the winner - because it is based on fair play.

GW may not be an "MMO", but it also isn't a "Competitive Sport", either. No matter how much you complain, A.Net is going to go with the business model that makes them the most amount of money. The way to make the most money is to keep people playing as long as possible. And the way to do that has historically been shown to provide a "grind".

So, I think you're an "emotional child" for thinking that A.Net wouldn't have it's own best interests at heart (making money), and not yours.

Saerden · Jun 03, 2005, 08:46 PM // 20:46

When people argue that a game has replay value because it makes you sit in front of the computer for 500h more doing random tasks you would NOT enjoy without the artificial reward, i look in the mirror and realize how many starving children i could have saved by only playing the parts of these games that i enjoy, and spending the rest of the time doing boring, humiliating jobs. Donations for the win.

This is the core point here. There can be no compromises. No truce. Only All-out war.